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AJ
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Knife steel Jul 25, 2013 10:52:21 GMT -8

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Post by AJ on Jul 25, 2013 10:52:21 GMT -8

This is for the noons, including me. I had no idea of the different kind of steel that knives are made of until I got into EDC. I did know that hard brittle knives were different to soft tough knives but that simplification was about it. So here is a place where we can put our knowledge together for new knife enthusiasts.

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AJ
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Knife steel Jul 25, 2013 10:53:18 GMT -8

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Post by AJ on Jul 25, 2013 10:53:18 GMT -8

Found this on survivalblog.com

link

Here is the text... If you feel this is copyright infringement I will remove it.

SurvivalBlog.com

The Daily Web Log for Prepared Individuals Living in Uncertain Times.

Letter Re: Query on Knife Recommendations

Jim:

First let's start by saying that the proverbial "do all" knife has never been made. Men have worked long and hard only to realize that for every action is an equal and opposite reaction.

You want a knife for chopping down trees? The blade must be very tough. This means though that the blade is not as hard and will not hold an edge very long.

You want a knife that will skin a 300 pound animal without need to be sharpened? Then the blade will be very hard and thus somewhat brittle. Consequently more difficult to sharpen when it does need it.

A fighting knife is not an outdoor survival knife! Don't buy a dagger and expect it to perform as a survival knife.

When selecting a knife, consider this for a moment. Just because the price of the knife is ridiculous does not mean that its better. The heart of the system is the materials used and the construction methods. For example, A blade that is ground will not be as hard or durable as a hammer forged knife. The difference is that a ground knife is taken from 'flat stock' steel (essentially a flat steel bar) and they then grind on it until the desired shape is met. A forged knife is heated to almost melting point, then pounded and slammed until a rough shape is met. Some grinding is required, however the molecular structure of the steel is "compressed" if you will. To understand this better, take a handful of wet dirt. Shape into something just rubbing it. Do the same with another handful but this time mold the wet dirt into shape. Now tell me which one is better. Finding a forged knife can be expensive and time consuming. I would recommend doing this yourself as I did.

Let's discuss the steels used in blade craft. Stay away from anything marked '440' or '440 stainless.' Let me explain. 440 stainless steel has three grades. Yup! You guessed it, A, B, and C. At the top of this list is 440A while 440C is at the bottom. Any quality Stainless 440 knife will have one of the letter designations. If not, than the knife just looks cool and that's about all it will ever do. If you do find a stainless steel knife that you cant live without, make sure it comes from a reputable name brand. Gerber has some very nice knifes as does Schrade, K-Bar, SOG. But this brings us to the endless debate. Stainless or Carbon Steel?

The debate over carbon steel versus stainless steel will rage forever. So get some information out so you can make an informed purchase. Carbon steel is generally tougher and it will hold a better edge, longer. It also tends to be heavier and depending on the treating process, more brittle. It will also rust and if not cared for, pits form or if neglected long enough, the carbon content will compromised. Resulting in an utterly worthless blade. The most common Carbon steel blends (for knives) in America are 1095, 1085, 1080, 1050, and 1045. These numbers have meaning. The first two numbers are something that escapes me right now but they are less important than the last two digits. The 95 means that 0.95% of the steel carbon. This means that the steel is very hard and also toward the brittle side but will hold a very sharp edge for a long time. 1080 is a little less hard and also less brittle. Its still a good steel and will hold its edge. 1045 is softer still and significantly tougher than 1095. It does not hold its edge very well but will stand some angry abuse. There quite a bit more to this than just carbon content, but this will get you started in selecting your high carbon steel knife. Keep your carbon blade oiled!

Stainless steels are by their very nature 'elastic'. Meaning they will stretch and bend and thus make an ideal steel for bridges. As far as knives go. There are several types and blends of stainless steel on the market today and some of them are very good. We have already covered the 440 range of knives briefly. So, Stainless steel is made by adding magnesium, chromium, copper, and several other types of metals to create a rust resistant steel. Stainless knives tend to be pretty hard and are also hard to sharpen. But remember, stainless is hard but its 'elastic' so it will take the extra chop on the tree. There is also the "high carbon" Stainless knives out now. the best way to explain this is this. Stainless is stainless because the carbon has been reduced and replaced by other hard metals. Because carbon takes a better edge and holds it longer they have developed high carbon stainless. Imagine looking at a closet full of basket balls. Do you see the gaps between balls? That would be the "old" stainless from the 1970s and 1980s. Today that same closet would look like golf balls. The point is that the steels have gotten so good that even the bad stainless will cut. It really comes down to how often you are willing to sharpen your knife. Stainless blades also tend to be hard on your stone. The blends and numbers of stainless steels are vast. So many in fact that we're going to concentrate on the most common. Gerber knives use a blend called 9CRV19MOV which is a very good steel. Basically what this means is that it has a lot of Chrome Vanadium in it. This is a high carbon stainless steel blade that will take a razor edge and hold it for a reasonable length of time of good usage.

If the materials are the heart of the system then the handle would be the right arm. A full tang, one solid piece with a sharp end and [extending the full length of the] handle attached at the other end is the best way, period. The Bear Gryllis knife is a three quarter tang and it seems to work well. I haven't broken it so it must work well.

In my kit I carry one 1095 carbon steel knife and one stainless steel knife. The combination works for most situations I will encounter. Not everyone has the extra cash to spend $1,700 on a hand forged Damascus, hand heat treated, and hand tempered knife. So I will throw a suggestion of what I carry. Aside from the 12 inch fighting knife I got in Pakistan, I carry in my kit a Mora Bushcraft knife. Its 1095 high carbon steel and is probably the best knife that I have. It takes a crazy sharp edge and will hold for a long time. I have shaved my face with this knife. I also carry around a Bear Gryllis ultimate survival knife. It has a 7CRV17MOV stainless steel blade and this will also take crazy sharp edge. I have shaved with this one too. The point here is there is no better knife, carbon or stainless. I prefer carbon steel but find that I use my stainless knife more often. I dread sharpening time though. The Mora knife was about $35. you can get the smaller version that I call the kitchen knife for about $10-15. The Bear Gryllis cost me a whopping $50 and has served me very well in the bush.

Keep your knives sharp. A dull knife is a dangerous knife. Choose well and I hope I cold shed some light on what some call a difficult choice. God bless and long live the Republic!

- M.C. in Arizona

JWR Replies: To clarify, I agree that 440A is a very good steel for knives and it has several advantages over 440C. For example, it has much higher edge stability (edge holding), and it is more resistant to corrosion. But in "real world" practice, a lot of 440A steel is used to make very inexpensive imported (read: Mainland China) knives that receive pitiful heat treatment, so their performance in actual use is quite poor. Granted, 440C has considerably much more carbon than 440A (1.0%, versus 0.6%, as I recall), so it can take a sharper edge. The tradeoff is lower rust resistance. In looking at the progression of 440A through 440C the edge properties go up, whilst simultaneously the rust resistance properties go down. These issues have been discussed at length over at CutleryScience.com. Some custom knives that cost $500+ are made with 440C. So it is overly simplistic to just say that 440A is "better." It all depends on what is done with the raw material. If the maker is cranking out lots of junk knives with lousy heat treatment, then the original grade of stainless steel is not the key factor.

Last Edit: Jul 25, 2013 11:05:31 GMT -8 by AJ

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AJ
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Knife steel Jul 25, 2013 10:54:57 GMT -8

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Post by AJ on Jul 25, 2013 10:54:57 GMT -8

I'm really sorry I have no record of the site I got this from.

Knife Steel

AUS-8, easy to sharpen, will take a really sharp edge, but will need maintenance, nice choice for a well used EDC like any of the Sog Arc-locks

154CM - Nice hard steel, capable of a hair popping edge on a thin blade. Medium sharpening difficult, but it holds the edge well.

VG-10 - In my opinion, VG-10 is still near the top of the heap, but I have more edge chipping with VG-10 than any other steel. Its hard, its sharp, but its relatively brittle in my use. Still love it.

8Cr14MoV - For the knives that come with it, you get a nice blade for the cost. Its a vast improvement over most American carbon steel knives of the same price range. Excellent using knife, refining the edge after use is rather simple.

S30V - Hard as nails to sharpen, hard as nails to dull. I love this stuff, but sharpening it requires the patience of a zen master. If you have trouble sharpening knives, stay away. If you can make a butter knife slice molecules, go buy 5.

D2 - Bar none the hardest steel to sharpen I've found, if you want a steel thats just a hair wimpier than Wolverines skeleton, get a big chopper made with D2. Assuming you can get an edge on it, you'll love it. Same story as S30V - not for the sharpening challenged.

A-2 - The sleeper of the bunch, this stuff is amazing. This stuff takes a wicked convex and holy geezus will it cut.

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Shorttime
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Knife steel Jul 25, 2013 11:53:16 GMT -8

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Post by Shorttime on Jul 25, 2013 11:53:16 GMT -8

Jul 25, 2013 10:54:57 GMT -8 AJ said:

I'm really sorry I have no record of the site I got this from.

Knife Steel

AUS-8, easy to sharpen, will take a really sharp edge, but will need maintenance, nice choice for a well used EDC like any of the Sog Arc-locks

In my personal experience, AUS-8 also wears as fast as it sharpens. With fibrous or gritty materials, the edge retention of AUS-8 drops dramatically, and it's something to be aware of if you use your knife for cutting ugly stuff.

154CM - Nice hard steel, capable of a hair popping edge on a thin blade. Medium sharpening difficult, but it holds the edge well.

I've only encountered 154CM once, but I was impressed. It seems to hold an edge better than AUS-8, but that is only my experience.

VG-10 - In my opinion, VG-10 is still near the top of the heap, but I have more edge chipping with VG-10 than any other steel. Its hard, its sharp, but its relatively brittle in my use. Still love it.

I concur.

8Cr14MoV - For the knives that come with it, you get a nice blade for the cost. Its a vast improvement over most American carbon steel knives of the same price range. Excellent using knife, refining the edge after use is rather simple.

8Cr is a stainless, although not as stainless as some others. It responds more dramatically to heat treat than some others. As always, you get what you pay for.

S30V - Hard as nails to sharpen, hard as nails to dull. I love this stuff, but sharpening it requires the patience of a zen master. If you have trouble sharpening knives, stay away. If you can make a butter knife slice molecules, go buy 5.

S30V is also capable of achieving a good balance between toughness and hardness. Currently, considered one of the best stainless blade steels on the market. Again, heat treat is the key.

D2 - Bar none the hardest steel to sharpen I've found, if you want a steel thats just a hair wimpier than Wolverines skeleton, get a big chopper made with D2. Assuming you can get an edge on it, you'll love it. Same story as S30V - not for the sharpening challenged.

I have a few issues with this assertion.

D2's chemical make up seems very sensitive to very small changes. Considerable variation has been seen between different lots of steel.

It is also more sensitive to heat treat than any other steel. Professional equipment and experience is absolutely necessary to achieve the results you want with D2.

It is not a true stainless. It has higher levels of chromium, but 12% is generally reckoned as the threshold for a steel to be called "stainless". It is stain resistant, but an uncoated blade should be treated as carbon steel to assure maximum life.

Having said this, D2 is a capable steel, and it is well-suited to larger knives.

A-2 - The sleeper of the bunch, this stuff is amazing. This stuff takes a wicked convex and holy geezus will it cut.

The factual portion of this statement relates to the edge geometry, not the metallurgy.

A-2 is a tool steel, so it should be cared for with the same combination of clean, dry, and light oil as any other tool steel.

I have no personal experience with A-2, and have read very little about it, so I will not comment on it's qualities.

If you do enough reading on the Internet about any subject, you may feel that you are going in circles. It can be especially difficult to tell the difference between fact and opinion, and it is also hard to tell if some posters have some financial benefit to gain by either endorsing or criticizing a particular subject, items, opinion, or point of view.

The same is true of blade steels.

The comments in red above, and the comments that follow are my observations, based on some personal experiences, and extensive reading.

In general, edge geometry and heat treat are the keys to knife performance, more so than steel choice.

For EDC, stainless tends to be the better choice, because it requires less care than tool steels. Most people will not notice the difference between various grades of steel, except in how long it holds an edge, and how easy it is to restore that edge.

If you have specific wants or needs, my first advice would be to contact a reputable knifemaker, and describe what you want to them. They are in a better position than most of the general public to recommend a steel choice, based on your particular needs.

This is not meant to imply that the subject cannot or should not be approached! But I would suggest an indirect approach:

The knifemaking community has thousands of hours of experience working with blade steels, and information from customers about the performance of those steels under "using" conditions.

If you want to research the topic of knife steels, I would suggest contacting various makers to ask what they use, and why. Most knifemakers are happy to share, and very professional. If you meet one that isn't, there are three who are!

Even so, look around for knifemakers with established reputations and accreditation. Members of the American Bladesmith Society are a good place to start.

Last Edit: Jul 25, 2013 13:23:18 GMT -8 by Shorttime

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AJ
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Knife steel Jul 25, 2013 13:47:05 GMT -8

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Post by AJ on Jul 25, 2013 13:47:05 GMT -8

Thanks for the info, I was hoping this would turn into a discussion rather than just a statement of 'facts'. As you say, you can go round in circles looking at different opinions. I hoped that reading this thread (if it goes anywhere) would help the novice to ask the right questions about knives. I was specifically thinking of production knives and knowing what I was buying, e.g. between different Spydercos. And, For example I've seen expensive knives made from 440, which I would have not queried before I started reading around. Now I can ask, 'why is this knife expensive when it's made from 440, which seems to be a 'basic' steel.' I'm sure there's a reason but I'd like to know it before I spend my money. I understand that buying a custom knife would be a completely different ball game. :)

Last Edit: Jul 25, 2013 13:50:23 GMT -8 by AJ

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Knife steel Jul 25, 2013 14:19:10 GMT -8

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Post by willydigger. FB inFamous on Jul 25, 2013 14:19:10 GMT -8

IMO as a picky knife psycho here are my choices.

• AUS-8 and 8cr13mov are basically the same. Junk.
• 400C is the lowest budget steel I will use. That's not to say I won't buy a cool design with something worse, but I'm glad the new Gnome Olivewood is 440C.

Favorite SS in order after that:
• S30V/CTS-XHP (I can't really tell a difference, but damn do they hold an edge)
• VG10 (Spyderco does an excellent job with this stuff)
• 154CM (I wasn't impressed with Leatherman's offerings, but Spyderco does it well)

Favorite overall:
• D2 (hard, not as hard to sharpen as I've read)
• 1095 (Carbon adds character what can I say)
• Billet Damascus with whatever variety of awesome you want to stuff in there. Since I own 1095/O1 that is my favorite version.

Least Favorite:
That fake ass Damascus wannabe colored crap. It's like spraying air freshener after taking a giant dump. Shits ugly. Get the realer stuff.

Any other steel not listed above. At some point they produce new steel just to sell knives. People like that I guess, but I don't see a point in the others. Not really a fan of custom named steel either. Elmax and Sandvik come to mind. Maybe they're alright, but they smell fishy.

Last Edit: Jul 25, 2013 14:20:47 GMT -8 by willydigger. FB inFamous

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Shorttime
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Knife steel Jul 25, 2013 14:41:21 GMT -8

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Post by Shorttime on Jul 25, 2013 14:41:21 GMT -8

Jul 25, 2013 13:47:05 GMT -8 AJ said:

Thanks for the info, I was hoping this would turn into a discussion rather than just a statement of 'facts'. As you say, you can go round in circles looking at different opinions. I hoped that reading this thread (if it goes anywhere) would help the novice to ask the right questions about knives. I was specifically thinking of production knives and knowing what I was buying, e.g. between different Spydercos. And, For example I've seen expensive knives made from 440, which I would have not queried before I started reading around. Now I can ask, 'why is this knife expensive when it's made from 440, which seems to be a 'basic' steel.' I'm sure there's a reason but I'd like to know it before I spend my money. I understand that buying a custom knife would be a completely different ball game. :)

Feel free to smack me off my soapbox, anytime!

It's just that it's hard to find the facts among the bullshit, especially on the Internet.

For somebody who is just getting into knives, and wants to do their research, it must seem like a bewildering, and contradictory, mess! Add to that the fact that heat treat and edge geometry make such a huge difference, that two knives made out of the same steel can act completely different in application.

I like the idea of starting a discussion about what questions a beginning knife knut should ask, even though I probably jumped right over that in your first post, on the way to my fucking lecture podium.

So I'm going to shut my big, dumb, opinionated hole, and let others ask the questions....

It's no fun if you practice, first.

AJ
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Knife steel Jul 25, 2013 14:57:09 GMT -8 CoRnhOlio and Shorttime like this

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Post by AJ on Jul 25, 2013 14:57:09 GMT -8

Not at all, I hope I didn't come across as trying to push you off any soap box you happen to have. Informed opinion is priceless for us lot that don't know a steel knife from a rubber chicken. (Maybe that's why I can't seem to sharpen my pencil. :badger:

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Deleted Posts: 0	Knife steel Jul 25, 2013 15:02:22 GMT -8 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2013 15:02:22 GMT -8 It seems the knife "collectors" seem to get wrapped up in the steel debate more than the knife "users". Knife users just sharpen their knives when they get dull.

Shorttime
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Knife steel Jul 25, 2013 19:15:22 GMT -8

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Post by Shorttime on Jul 25, 2013 19:15:22 GMT -8

Jul 25, 2013 15:02:22 GMT -8 @balrog said:

It seems the knife "collectors" seem to get wrapped up in the steel debate more than the knife "users". Knife users just sharpen their knives when they get dull.

This!

When I started buying knives, and didn't know any better, I just bought stuff I thought looked cool in my price range.

It was only when I started looking at more expensive knives, and saw the differences, that I started doing some research.

For those who are in the very early stages of their knife knuttery, it may not be just a matter of educating them about different knife steels, but that there is in fact, any difference at all...

I tried to keep my mouth shut, but this is important shit.

Last Edit: Jul 25, 2013 19:18:10 GMT -8 by Shorttime

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Coupe
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Knife steel Aug 17, 2013 6:37:07 GMT -8

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Post by Coupe on Aug 17, 2013 6:37:07 GMT -8

154cm or CPM154 is easy to sharpen and put a polish edge on without much difficulty at all. The n690 edge seems to last forever on my f3's. Super Blue can take a crazy sharpening angle and still hold its edge. The D2 blades of both my Bm 32 and 51 are hair poping from the factory all I did was stroped them some and was like damn. The blade geometry has a lot to do with how sharp it is also, if it wasn't grind right from the start good luck getting a good edge on it and keeping it.

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Knife steel Aug 20, 2013 9:04:22 GMT -8

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Post by MWDP on Aug 20, 2013 9:04:22 GMT -8

I'll take everything except D2, because that thing sucks balls. Hard as nails, tough to sharpen, holds an edge about the same as S30v, takes much more to get it equally sharp as that steel. Plus it's semi-stainless, so cutting anything acidic results in stains. D2 = poop.

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Knife steel

Post by AJ on Jul 25, 2013 10:52:21 GMT -8

Post by AJ on Jul 25, 2013 10:53:18 GMT -8

Post by AJ on Jul 25, 2013 10:54:57 GMT -8

Post by Shorttime on Jul 25, 2013 11:53:16 GMT -8

Post by AJ on Jul 25, 2013 13:47:05 GMT -8

Post by willydigger. FB inFamous on Jul 25, 2013 14:19:10 GMT -8

Post by Shorttime on Jul 25, 2013 14:41:21 GMT -8

Post by AJ on Jul 25, 2013 14:57:09 GMT -8

Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2013 15:02:22 GMT -8

Post by Shorttime on Jul 25, 2013 19:15:22 GMT -8

Post by Coupe on Aug 17, 2013 6:37:07 GMT -8

Post by MWDP on Aug 20, 2013 9:04:22 GMT -8